South Yorkshire Times, November 18th 1944
Education Committee’s Lively Session
Conisborough Vicar States his Case
Mr. H. Gomersall presided at a meeting of Conisborough Education Sub-Committee last Thursday, in which considerable public interest had been aroused in the district by the controversy between the vicar of Conisborough, the Rev. G. Needham and the Committee. Mr. Needham had stated that he would be present at the next Education Committee meeting to answer the committee.
After the minutes of the previous meeting had been read, Mr. Needham said he noticed from the press report that suggestions had been made that he had been communicated with before the report of an earlier meeting had appeared in the press, and so had been able to comment on the matter in his parish magazine before the report had appeared. The suggestion was quite inaccurate, and he got his information from the “South Yorkshire Times,” which, appeared on his breakfast table each Friday morning. He raised the matter in order to clear the press representative.
Mr. Gomersall said that since that occasion the vicar had been approached by the editor of the “South Yorkshire Times” for his views on a report of the last meeting before it appeared in the press, and he did not agree with the procedure.
Mr. Needham interjected to say that there was nothing improper about it, and quoted several instances where public men had been asked to give their views, which were published alongside matters affecting them; for instance, Mr. Smithson’s statement (West Yorkshire Coalowners’ Association) and Mr. J. A. Hall’s (Yorkshire Mineworkers’ Association) comments appeared side by side.
Realised She Was Wrong
Mrs. Oldfield said she was responsible for raising the question, because she could not see how the magazine could be published so soon after the meeting, but she realised now that she was wrong.
The Chairman then gave the figures of the attendances of the Rev. G. Needham and the Rev. S. Powley at the Education Committee Meetings since July, 1942, which were as follows: Mr. Needham, nine out of a possible 30 and Mr. Powley 11 out of 30.
Mr. Needham: Does anyone else want to say anything about this? Two or three of you had plenty to say about it last time, when I was not here.
Mr. Gomersall: Do you want to say anything about it Mr. Needham?
Mr. Needham: I do, I have a lot to say about it. I intend to be very frank, but I don’t think it will do harm. I would like to deal with this question of attendance. Look at your agenda for tonight. I ask you, is it necessary in the midst of the most devastating war in history for 10 able-bodied people to carry out the business on this agenda? There is nothing in it which couldn’t be settled by a clerk with common sense. You are apt to make a fetish of things unimportant. Those who say that this agenda tonight is important must worship the insignificant, and this agenda is typical. We ought not to be asked to spend a whole night on mere routine matters like this. Education committee business, real education, consists of more than dealing with scabies or discussing whether the knives in the canteen are stainless steel. We have something more to do than getting parents fined for the failure of their children to attend school. I know we have to deal with these things, but we ought not to spend a whole night on them. There are more important matters. Are they happy? Are they satisfied? You probably think that under your benevolent despotism they could not be any other. But how do you know? As a committee, do we ever meet the teachers to find out?
Mr. Gomersall: The schools are visited.
Mr. Needham: That is not what I mean. They won’t tell you anything if you go in officially, but if we called them together to discuss things with them, with a view to helping each other, we should learn something about them. To mention another matter, what about the new Education Bill which comes into force next year? Do you realise that under its terms this sub-committee might be sacked?
Mr. Gomersall: We are in possession of the new formalities.
Getting Down To Fundamentals
Mr. Needham: But what are you going to do about it? If you have a policy, why isn’t it discussed here? Perhaps we could all stand together on it and fight. What about juvenile delinquency? Is there any other area where there is more wanton destruction and damage and lack of discipline than here? What are you doing about it? Do we leave it to teachers and parents and then blame them? We ought to discuss this with them and see what we can do about it. If you wish people to attend committee meetings you should discuss things like these. These things are important educationally. My suggestion is that we get through the routine part quickly and then get down to something of importance.
Mr. D. Sheldon then remarked that he had never heard before that he was not understood. “Perhaps I didn’t use King’s English, but I have been understood in my work as a trade union leader and as a Councillor and I hope I shall be understood in what I am going to say now, even if I am not quite B.B.C. I question Mr. Needham’s appointment on this committee because I felt we had a right to a say in the matter. Surely it doesn’t follow that because we have had one man on the committee, we should have his successor in another sphere, who is a stranger to us. Should we appoint him just because he was a Vicar? I say we should get to know these people first. Let them prove their worth. Some are far better than others. Mr. Needham says a few of us could do this work. If I am put in a job, I do it. People who are away from meetings always criticise work done in their absence. I hope I have made myself clear to-night.”
Mr. Cheshire: What can we cut out of the agenda?
Mr. Needham: Nothing, get through it quickly.
Mr. Cheshire: I am afraid I drew the red herring in this case. What led up to this was the filling of the seat on the Board of Managers of the Old Denaby School. For years this seat has been occupied by Mr. Powley. There is no need for me to explain to Mr. Needham about the working of the Church Schools.
Mr. Needham: Thank you. You are the first one to-night to credit me with intelligence.
Mr. Cheshire went on “In my opinion it was not fair to put the new Vicar in the vacancy. It should be a layman. The church Schools are well represented by their own people.”
“Why Pick On The Church?”
Mr Needham: Why use the word “afraid?” If a man has convictions, he has a right to express them. I ask too that you consider my point of view. Mr. Cheshire had admitted that I know something about Church Schools. Isn’t it only reasonable to assume that Mr. Powley’s successor will know something about them too?” Surely, he is the just the man to represent this sub-committee on a Church School, since he will know what the ecclesiastical policy is with regard to Church Schools and can tell us here. As for Mr. Sheldon’s heavy humour, my comment about this “lucid English” referred to what was reported in the press. He still hadn’t explained what he was trying to get at at the last meeting. But this is a point I want considering. Before I came here the question was raised as to why the new Vicar at Conisbrough should be on the committee. After Mr Powley’s resignation the same question is asked about his successor. Was the same question asked when Fr. Stack was appointed to the committee? Did you ask why he should automatically succeed Canon Holohan? Why pick on the Church every time? If we are going to make attendances the issue there is no need to be hypocritical. There are other committees besides this. I wonder how often some of you who have been talking about attendances attend these other committees.
Mr. Sheldon: Personally, I try to attend every possible meeting, often at sacrifice of money and home life. Only a wife knows what it is. We often pray for the murderer and the thief, but do we ever pray for the wife of the public man? I have attended at least 85 per cent of the committees of which I am a member.
Mr. Needham: But why pick on the Church every time? What about the Roman Catholic vote?
Mr. Sheldon: Because we have two Vicars, but no representative of the Free Church or the Salvation Army.
The Chairman interposed here to say that the late Canon Holohan had put in 15 attendances out of a possible 22. During the period under review the Canon had been seriously ill, and when he was fit to attend no one paid more attention to his duty on that Committee than either Canon Holohan or his predecessor. Fr. Stack had attended twice out of a possible four meetings, but he (the Chairman) was making allowances for the fact that he was new to the district and would have his hands full for a time. He went on “In dealing with his question of non-attendance I made the reference generally and I want to say to Mr. Needham with reference to the party caucus that little of it has been seen during my 18 years as Chairman of this committee. I regret Mr. Needham’s reference to my Sunday evening activities; it’s delving into private affairs. I’ve never done it. If I did, I should mention that his two psychology classes were more remunerative than this meeting.”
Mr. Needham: Don’t you get paid for attending committees?
Mr. Gomersall: No, sir, I don’t get paid for attending this committee.
Mr. Needham: I mean for any committee.
Mr. Gomersall reaffirmed that he was not paid for attending any committee.
Mr. Sheldon, on this point said “I should like to make it clear that I get nothing for these or any meetings. I haven’t done so since I came out of the pit three years ago.”
Mr. Needham: I’ve done you a good turn by asking that question. I’ve given you an opportunity to deny publicly that you get paid for committees, because people outside say that you are paid for some of the work you do. You should thank me for raising the point.
Mr. Sheldon: I do thank you.
Mr. Needham (to the Chairman): I still say that it is through your party that you are in the chair. If you went contrary to party policy you would not be allowed to hold office.
Mr. Gomersall: Quite recently the council nominated someone to this committee other than a member of the Labour Party. There’s been more hot air tonight than I have ever experienced. I have never had to rise from the chair before.
Mr. Needham: I should think not, if you attack when your victim is not there
Mr. Gomersall: I asked the Rev. W. J. T. Pascoe to take the Chairmanship of this committee, but he said he was quite prepared to serve under me. Another point you made was that people on education committees should be educationists first and foremost,
Mr. Needham: I said SOME members should be free from party control.
Mr. Gomersall seemed to demur and Mr. Needham continued: now I said SOME. Look it up if you are not satisfied.
Mr. Gomersall: All right then “some” if you like.
Mr: Needham: May I refresh your memory? The occasion was when we were recommending the appointment of a new head teacher. You had made your reference at a previous meeting and I asked you if you were getting at me. You said “NO.”
Mr. Gomersall: Yes, I was referring to another gentleman, but both you and Mr. Powley attended the next meeting. If you are trained, why on earth don’t you attend? In my opinion you are not doing justice to your position.
Mr. Needham: you should not expect people to waste time on merely routine business.
Mr. Gomersall: You also said that some people have other things to do in wartime. Well, I’m not blowing my own trumpet, but as a warden, councillor, Chairman of the Invasion Committee, and various other duties in connection with A.R.P., I think you will agree that you have not more than me to do. Now about the people you say you represent. Are they satisfied with your representation?
Mr. Needham: yes, definitely, during the past few weeks. They realised that when the church is affected, I can weigh in. I should have thought you would have realised that by now in view of the controversy. Anyhow, you needn’t worry. If the church is attacked, I shall be present all right.
Mr. B. Roberts: I am on many committees but I don’t always attend, but I always try to be present when there is important business on hand. I have very little pleasure in life. I devote my time to signing papers and answering questions. I think we could have approached this question in a different way, but when it is all over, we shall perhaps be better for it.
Mr. Needham: now I am going to move a resolution. I propose that in future the committee endeavours to get through the routine business more quickly and then get down to discussion of problems and policy for the all-round betterment of education in this district.
Mr. Roberts: I think there is something in what the Vicar says and I am going to support him. I think perhaps we can do it another way from having a resolution.
Mr. Sheldon: there are only five more meetings If the Education Bill becomes law.