Mexborough & Swinton Times – Friday 17 November 1893
Meeting of Unemployed in Mexborough
Lively Proceedings
A Deputation to Meet the Local Board
Mr. Abraham Lee and the Denaby Miners
A meeting of the unemployed labourers of Mexborough was held on Wednesday afternoon in Hardy’s Assembly Rooms. Mr. Adsetts occupied the chair, and was supported by Mr. A. Lee and Mr. J. E. Cliff. About a hundred men were present, the majority of them being miners, although a large number were labourers were in attendance.
Work Wanted for the Unemployed
The Chairman, in opening the meeting, said they had been called together on account of the great amount of distress in the neighbourhood, and also because the local authorities had a scheme which he thought they ought to push forward whereby provide work for the unemployed. He believed if some little pressure was imposed upon the Local Board from the ratepayers they would go on with the scheme at once instead of waiting as he believed they proposed to do. He understood that the chief barrier in the way was the monetary question, but from a conversation which he had had with Mr. Watson, who had taken a prominent part in the scheme, he believed it was possible to overcome this obstacle, and that a way out of the difficulty would ultimately be found. He had also spoken to another member of the Board, Mr. Tiptaft, who said that the monetary part of the business alone hindered its progress, but he (the chairman) believed when they saw the magnitude of the distress which existed the Board would find a means to surmount the difficulty. At all events it was worth while trying. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Lee moved: “That having regard to the destitute condition of the unemployed labourers of this town, this meeting urges the Local Board to at once begin the highway improvements at the east end of Mexborough, and to distribute the work amongst as many labourers as possible.” He said the Local Board had already decided to do the work, and he thought they would commence it directly, but he believed there was a money difficulty. He daresay they were aware that at present the rates were coming in very slowly, and the Local Board was not flush of money at present. Indeed he believed they had had to borrow money, and this being short of money had depressed them and caused them to think that they would allow the work to stand over. If the money difficulty could be overcome he believed they would go on with the work, and it appeared that Mr. Watson saw a way out of the trouble. He (Mr. Lee) saw no difficulty in the matter. There were a very great number of men out of work through no fault of their own, and it was a time for not only the Board members but for other individuals to render all the assistance they could to relieve the distress. (Hear, hear.) He had been told that the work which the Board contemplated would cost about £1000 for labour, which, distributed among the labourers of the town at the present moment, would be of very great benefit indeed. Suppose they gave 100 men two and a half days’ work a week for ten shillings, the work would spread over 20 weeks, and if they put on 200 men it would last for ten weeks. It was simply a question of someone finding the money for about six months. Surely there were men who would lend the Local Board this £1000. There were men willing to lend money to the banks, and the Local Board was safer than any bank. (Hear, hear.) All that was wanted was for the Local Board to remember that they were the ratepayers’ servants. They had sent them there, and he thought they ought to send a large deputation to them to tell them with a strong voice that they must find work for the men. (Applause.) They wanted to go in a strong body and tell them it was really important that these men should have work; not to go in a peremptory spirit, but in an earnest spirit to tell them that they did not want charity but work, and he believed the Board would put its shoulder to the wheel and remove the barrier that stood in the way. (Applause.)
Mr. John Shaw seconded the resolution.
Mr. J. E. Cliff, speaking in support of the resolution, said he was entirely in accord with the purpose of the meeting. The Local Board had decided to do the work, and there was only the little matter of the money that had hindered them, and he thought this could be got over very easily. It was the duty of the Local Board to make a strong effort to commence the work. The unemployed must be kept, the law said so. He did not believe in them being kept by charity when there was work to do (hear, hear) and the Local Authority, where it possibly could, ought to provide facilities so that men might work, and not sponge on their fellow creatures. (Hear, hear.) He believed the great bulk of the unemployed were willing to work if it was only found for them to do. To some extent the School Board had succeeded in finding work for some of them, and although they had no money when they started to find the work they knew they could get some, and what was more they got it. (Hear, hear.) He believed if the Local Board set itself to find money for the work there were a good many persons in Mexborough who would help them to raise it. No member of the Local Board has a right to stick up his “heckles” at the unemployed. (Laughter and hear, hear.) He confessed that he had not much sympathy with some members of the Board, who appeared to think that once they got elected they were safe for three years and need not trouble any more about it. As far as he was concerned when the Board considered their resolution he should have much pleasure in supporting it, and would do his best to induce the Board to agree to their request (applause).
The resolution was then put and carried unanimously. It was then decided that a deputation of thirty should wait upon the Local Board at its next meeting, and the names of the unemployed labourers to form a deputation were taken. It was further decided that Mr. Lee and Mr. Adsetts should introduce the deputation.
Mr. Lee and the Denaby Miners
The Chairman said he understood that a large number of miners had attended that meeting because they had a crow to pluck with Mr. Lee (hear, hear), and he had undertaken, if they were orderly during the first part of the meeting, to ask Mr. Lee for an explanation. He would propose that if any of them wished to ask Mr. Lee a question they should give him a definite question to answer and give him a fair hearing while he replied.
The Chairman’s remarks were the signal for a perfect babel of questions. One miner asked “what Abraham Lee wanted to go messing about and interfering in the Denaby wage sheet for?” Other questions were asked which it was impossible, owing to the rapidity with which they were asked and on account of the noise, to understand. When the chairman had in a measure restored order, a miner present moved “that as far as Abraham Lee and his interfering with the question is concerned, the meeting treats both with contempt.” This was greeted with approval and seconded by several present, while others called for Abraham Lee, and finally the chairman asked Mr. Lee to address the meeting.
For some time the interruptions prevented him speaking, but when he did so Mr. Lee said he admired a man who would face another and tell him what he thought about him and as several of them had faced him in a very courageous manner, he would answer their questions equally straightforwardly. “What business has Abraham Lee to go down to Denaby Main and look at the wage sheet and also to get extracts from these wage sheets published in one of the daily papers?” He took it that was what was meant by the question. (Hear, hear.) Very well then, he would answer the question. For his own part he had not said one word of his own about the matter. It was true he had been down to Denaby Main and had seen the wage sheet, and it was true that he had given extracts to one of the reporters of a daily paper, and he would tell them what business he had to do it. He took great interest in all public question and the question of the miners’ wages was a public question. It was not a private question (The Chairman: It is a national question.) Mr. Lee continuing said he quite agreed, it was a national question and an international question. Mr. Pickard had made it a public question and had said that the miners earned certain wages. He forgot exactly what he said they were but the Rev. Mr. Thornton had also made it a public question, and he had said that there were a great many miners in his district who worked for 5s. and even 2s. a week. Now he thought if that was so it was a great shame and a great disgrace.
Against the statements of Mr. Pickard and Mr. Thornton were the statements made by Mr. Buckingham Pope and by certain newspapers respecting the wages of colliers at Denaby Main. Now the statements of either side varied and he wanted to bottom this thing and he went himself to have a peep at the wage sheets. According to these sheets, mind he did not say it was true, the colliers were earning 7s. 6d. a day at Denaby Main upon an average. According to these sheets that was so and if it was not true then a great wrong had been done them.
(A voice: What do the fillers get?) He did not say they got it but it was what the Denaby Main Colliery Company said they got. (A voice: It’s a lie then!) According to these sheets the wages of colliers at Denaby Main differed very little. (A voice: How many men’s sheets did you see?) According to what he saw the wages of separate men did not differ above 1s. or 1s. 6d. a day, except in one district, the East plain district. (A voice: Supposing that is all right, what good’s it done to ye? and applause.) The reason he went down there was to get at the truth.
Statements had been made that the colliers were earning so much a day that he considered the colliers had not had a fair chance to prove the contrary. Now they have. He had caused to be published the earnings of a number of stalls who said that for a week ending such a date they had earned so much per man. He had already put it to the test. That morning he had spoken to one man who had given him the number of his stall and asked him what he had earned a day for the week prior to the stoppage; he had told the man that he had earned 6s. 2d. a day and the man had replied that it was right. For the week before the man had earned 7s. a day according to his extracts and this was right also. This was only one man and he had a statement of the earnings of others. If they would come to him they could see whether the Denaby Main Company were telling a lie or not. He had nothing to do with the Denaby Main Company; he was a working man himself and his sympathies were with the working men.
If the Colliery Company had been telling a falsehood about it he would publish it the moment he found it out, because he cared nothing about the Company.
Mr. Cliff said he did not quite agree with Mr. Lee. He had a right to go to Denaby Main to find out the truth of the question but he had a right to look at both sides of the question, (hear, hear), and before he was satisfied he ought to have asked to look at their profits which had been divided among the shareholders. (Hear, hear.) He would like to ask Mr. Lee whether he thought the miner ought to work for 7s. 6d. a day, even supposing he got it, if the coalowner got 25s. out of the day’s work? (hear, hear.) He dare venture to say that of all the 1,500 men employed at Denaby not more than 200 averaged 7s. 6d. a day. (Hear, hear.) He knew a man, he believed he was in the room, who had worked four days in Denaby on the coal face for 8d., which was only 2d. a day. (Hear, hear.) He was prepared to say that there were men working at Denaby Main who never earned 7s. 6d. a day and nothing like it, and even if they got 10s. a day that was not too much for going down the pit day after day, for six days a week. (Hear, hear.)
He knew a man whose two sons, one of whom was 21 years of age and the other 18 years, had never earned more since they started in the pit than 11s. a week one, and 10s. a week the other. And they had had to work six days for that. Was 11s. a week a fair wage for a man 21 years of age. (Hear, hear.) He himself would not go down Denaby pit twice or get eleven shillings. (Hear, hear, and applause.) He quite believed that Mr. Lee had not got at the truth (hear, hear) and he believed if he did discover it he would not hesitate to publish the hypocrisy and falsehood he might discover. He regretted that Mr. Lee had taken this step at such a critical moment. He might be right, and have acted from the best of motives, but the impression had got abroad that he was anxious to prove that the miners were getting a living wage, and that they ought to be satisfied with less. That was the impression which Mr. Lee’s action had created.
He (Mr. Cliff) did not think the miner could get too much. (Hear, hear.) If he got fifteen shillings a day he was entitled to it. He knew this, that those who did not live by the sweat of their brow, but existed in luxury and ease, enjoying a life of pleasure, made a good deal more out of the colliers’ day’s work than the collier did (hear, hear) and it was a sin and a shame that these men should go down into the bowels of the earth to delve and slave to fill the rich man’s coffers with gold, while at the same time they were begrudged the little they earned for all their labour and the risk they ran. (Applause.)
(A miner among the audience said he should like to ask Mr. Lee how many men’s names he had got down.) (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Barnett said he should like to ask how long Mr. Lee was down at Denaby Main, because if he was only there about two hours or so, neither he nor his “daddy” at figures (laughter) in fact no man could go through the pay sheets fairly in that time, that was, if he took the pay sheets for any length of time. (Hear, hear.) It was no good coming there and telling them that they had shown him this sheet and that book. They knew what they were doing at Denaby, and would take good care he only saw what suited them. (Hear, hear.) He knew what they were at Denaby; they were the biggest traitors in England. They would cheat any man that the wages did not average back any man that the wages did not average four shillings a days for four years. Had Mr. Lee even got the averages for twelve months?
Mr. Cliff asked Mr. Lee whether in some cases where the wages were eight shillings a day the man had not had to put in two shifts, which had been charged as one shift. (Hear, hear, and applause.) A voice: What about the stoppages?
Mr. Lee replying, said Mr. Cliff had enquired why he had not asked for the profits. (Hear, hear.) Well, he would challenge Mr. Cliff to go down with him to Denaby Main, and if he would go, then he would ask Mr. Buckingham Pope what the profits were. Would Mr. Cliff go?
Mr. Cliff replied that he would go willingly, and this declaration was hailed with cheering and laughter, a miner declaring that if Mr. Lee had the cheek to go down and interfere with the wages he ought to have cheek to ask to look at the profits. (Hear, hear, and applause.)
Mr. Lee, continuing, said he thought Mr. Cliff had been rather unfair. He had spoken about a man earning twopence a day, and asked if he thought it was a living wage. He had always stuck up for a high wage, and before Mr. Cliff was born he was concerned in a strike. He was seventeen years of age at the time, and he went to a strike meeting and was asked to take the chair. He had a very rich cousin, a manufacturer, and that interference did him a lot of harm. He quite believed that the men ought to get more, and he blamed them very much for not getting more of the masters profits. (Hear, hear.) He knew they had been making a lot of money at Denaby Main. (Hear, hear.) He had heard tell of a pit in the neighbourhood, the profits of which had repaid the whole capital in one year with 8 per cent. interest, and during that time the men were working for eight shillings a day. They ought to be ashamed to do it as much in his opinion. (Hear, hear.)
Then Mr. Cliff thought it was a pity he had interfered at such a critical moment. He supposed he meant it might hinder the settlement that they hoped would take place. But Mexborough was not such an important place that anything which they did there would have much influence. (Laughter.) Lord Rosebery was not likely to hear of Mr. Lee or Mr. Cliff. (Laughter.) Mr. Cliff had spoken about his statement, but he had only given the figures he took from the books, they were not his statements.
One miner had asked him how many men worked in each stall. He would try and describe for them how the time sheets were made out. In the first column there was the number of the stall. The first he looked at was No. 12 in the Montagu district. (A Voice: That’s the twopence a day place, and hear, hear.) Mr. Lee: Well, the Denaby Main Company says it is a 6s. 8d. a day place. (Loud laughter.) Continuing, Mr. Lee said that in the second column it gave the number of men employed in the stall, and in the third column it gave the gross wage for the week, and in another it gave what they had to pay for tramming and filling, and there was also a column to show what the men had to pay for market men. (A laugh.) These items were taken from the gross wages that were earned in the stall, and that left the net sum earned. Then there were the number of shifts, and the net earnings were divided by the number of shifts and the number of men, and that gave the average wages. (A Voice: Where does it mention stoppages?) Some men said that the Denaby Main Company did not know how many market men were employed in the pit, and that the number put down was only a mere guess. They said that more were employed, and that their wages had to come off what was stated as the average wage earned in the stall. He would like to prove that, and if there was one case he should say: Away with your wage sheets. (Applause.)
One case would satisfy him that Mr. Buckingham Pope’s statement was not reliable. If anybody would come to him and go through the list of stalls he had, and prove that in any one case the full number of market men was not accounted for, it would smash Mr. Buckingham Pope’s statement in a moment. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Barnett asked whether the sheets Mr. Lee had been looking at were for the last month before the stoppage, because, if so, he knew there were less men put in the book than were working in the places. (Hear, hear.) He knew this by his own pay sheets that everything was put on top of the wage, and they did not take the stoppages off for lamps and tools and such like. If there was a point or two worth working for it was for the owners to make a big thing out of the last week or two the men were working, but such weeks were exceptional. (Cheers.)
Mr. Lee said the sheets he had examined were for the four weeks of June ending the 7th, the 14th, the 21st, and the 24th. He would say this that Mr. Chambers told him that he had all the pay sheets since 1883, and told him he could look at any year or month he liked.
A Miner said Mr. Chambers couldn’t come and tell him that the men had averaged seven shillings and sixpence since 1883. (Hear, hear.)
Another of the audience enquired why, if Mr. Lee believed in a living wage, he had withdrawn his subscription from the relief fund. Seeing that the miners were fighting for a living wage?
Mr. Lee said he had given 6s. a week to the committee but had withdrawn it because the miners were getting a little money paid to them, and he was giving his money to those who were receiving none.
After some further discussion the meeting closed with a vote of thanks to the chairman, which was moved by Mr. Lee, seconded by Mr. Cliff.